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hug meHey guys! Well that time has come for me to post some questions.
Well...
Ya i'm behind. I'm about half done the chapter and really low on time and mental energy to do my readings. I should finish reading it this week sometime.
Anyone else feel like posting discussion topics for this section?
Scott
lyricalHey guys! Happy fall and welcome back to the yearly grind. I've finally settled in for the long haul and i'm ready to start on our next book. Now i'm thinking of setting a decent and structured pace for this one. Here's what I propose:
Section 1 - Discipline: Reading due October 17th
2 Week discussion till October 31st
Section 2 - Love: Reading due November 14th
Discussion till November 30th
Section 3 - Growth and Religion: Reading due Dec 19th
Discussion till Dec 31st
Section 4 - Grace: Reading due January 16th
Discussion till January 31st.
How does that pace sound? I'll attempt to post discussion questions at the start of each discussion period for us to throw back and forth.
Peace bro's
Scott
energeticHey guys. How's your summer going?
I just wanted to let you all know that I'm going to be gone on vacation from Aug 1st - Aug 15th. I hope to post a schedule right after I get back for the new book. Have you got it and/or started it yet josh? I'm really looking forward to this one!
Have a great rest of your summer and I'll talk to you once I'm back!
In Loving- Kindess,
Scott Weinbender
rushedAll right, all right! Yes, i'm slow. Heh. :) Even though I finished the book quite a while ago, it has taken me way to long to post. So here goes.
I did also find that the book seemed to drag on. There was so much repetition of character action that it got quite dull at the end. The author had a great start with action and very believeable characters, but there was no character progression and no depth to the storyline. I definately will not read the 2nd book.
There probably isn't too much point in me going much more in depth into the book than that. So here's the next book we are going to read. It's called, 'the Road Less Travelled' by M. Scott Peck M.D.. I do warn you that I've read most of it already, but it is a book that will lend itself to active discussion. Plus it was one of those view changing books that i've had the joy of coming across so far in life. I'm going to set a schedule with questions for everyone to respond to from each chapter. Hopefully it will keep myself and everyone involved much better.
Cheers and Happy Summer to you both! Let me know when you get the book and we can get started again!
Scott
a-okHey guys.
I have now finished both Pillars and World Without End.
My conclusion: Follett writes books that are too long. He uses the basest human instincts and actions to drive his plot, while juxtaposing them against the twisted fruit of each: rape and sex, murder and death withheld unjustly, the most economical peasent and the worst selfish earl. His novels are epic in scope, but end up losing their purpose because they skip too many years. In both novels, one of the main characters is rejected by his hometown, and leaves to seek acceptance elsewhere. It gets a little tedious after 2000 pages of the same stuff.
Overall, I enjoyed Pillars much more than World Without End. It was fresher and more exciting. Don't read the second book! You will regret it if you do.
Well, we all said we'd be done by now, so I'm just going to assume we're all done. If not, then Josh you're going too damn slow lol...
As we've all read, only Tom ever found out what really happened the night Jack burned the cathedral down, and he died before he ever told anyone else. To tell you the truth, I was kind of disappointed that this didn't play a larger role in the story later on, as it probably could have added to it. Think how the story would have been different had Philip found out. Or Waleran. I just think more could have been made of this point in the story. It's like it was forgotten. And it probably would have been more interesting than what actually did happen at the end of the story.
Scott made this point to me earlier, that it kinda gets predictable what the characters are gonna do after a while. I guess it was a little surprising when Remigius defended Philip near the end of the story, but he and Philip had already made their peace by then. Beyond that, there's really not much that surprised me. Scale back a few entries and you'll see my character analysis, awkward as it may be, but you'll also notice that not a whole lot has really changed. We could at least see some character development, some new traits we haven't seen from some characters. Instead they are the same people until the end, just older.
I'm also a bit disappointed Martha didn't have a bigger role in the story. She's almost unheard from in the second half of the story.
All in all though, I think it was a good book, and it kept me entertained. Sorry I read it so quickly, it really did end up restricting my input while you guys were still reading it. I'll do better on the next book.
Scott, you're on deck. Do you have a book in mind yet? Let us know, and we'll get it. Whether it's a story, or whether we go back to a philosophical book, or even if you pick a self help book, whatever you pick, we'll do.
So, any comments?
a-okHey guys, the question I posed in the subject is the one topic I would like discussed reagrding this section of the book.
My susipcion is that Jack will be discovered, but won't be disciplined. It will be exciting to see if I'm right. My guess is that he will be discovered by a monk, but it also wouldn't suprise me if Martha finds out somehow first and then lets it slip accidently. However, since they are being seperated this probably won't happen for a while yet.
On another note, what's your gut feeling about Waleran Scott? Its no fair that Dave has read this already, since he can't really participate in this kind of discussion. I have a feeling that he is a principled character whose primary motive for living is to advance his own place in society first, but he does have a genuine concern to see the betterment of the church as well.
Let's hear some thoughts guys.
lazyHey guys,
If you can be ready to discuss everything else before the start of Part 2 by Wednesday March 12th that would be superb! I am already done, so if you are ready Scott you can post before then.
I think we should take turns posing discussion questions, as I did for the first section.
Why don't one of you take the lead on that, and then the other guy can ask questions on the next section.
Josh
brightThanks for the rundown on the characters so far Dave.
I have two things I would like to discuss so far.
First, how did you feel when Francis forced his brother into service on behalf of the church. It was quite a place to put someone in your family in. I liked the tension I felt within myself as I wondered wheather I could put my brother in that kind of situation.
Second, when Ellen comes to Tom after the awful events that befell him, it becomes apparent that Follet had set all of this up in advance. However, I felt like it was forced. The description of Ellen's sexual approach was made out to be a spiritual experience. But it was kind of hedonistic and I feel that it occured too early in the book before we even knew the characters. I sort of felt like he was cheating by appealing to the basest instincts of humanity by using sex as one of the redeeming forces of the story - especially so early on when it stems out of lust rather than a deeper relationship. On the other hand we could say that Ellen was giving Tom the only comfort that she could offer him, but if my wife died, I don't think I would want to escape my grief by diving into the arms of another woman. Again however, we could say that Ellen was joing herself to Tom for pragmatic or plot reasons, but either is a pitiful excuse for introducing sex into the story so early on. I get the feeling that Follet is going to make sex one of the main factors in drivingthe plot. It will be interesting to see if this is correct or not.
Scott, you had no objections to it, so I assume he has finished the required reading to this point. Josh, you set the deadline, so there's no reason why you wouldn't have met it. I, of course, having no life, have finished the whole book, but won't spoil any of it for you.
My book is only 973 pages long. In my book, the second chapter ends at page 155. But I assume the words are all the same, and it ends with the death of the bishop of Kingsbridge.
Anyway, I thought I'd do a run-down of the characters:
Tom - an honest man, but a bit of a dreamer. Has a bit of a soft spot for his son.
Agnes - caring, hard-working wife and mother. Dies early in the story.
Ellen - wild and passionate, never afraid to speak her mind. A survivor, to be sure.
Alfred - slow-witted and brutish. Kind of a bully.
Martha - energetic, as most kids her age are.
Jack - rather brilliant for his age and time. At this point in the story it seems he doesn't have an outlet for it though, and doesn't know much of the outside world yet.
Philip - very intelligent...but also very naive.
Waleran - a schemer. Seems to have an ulterior motive.
Remigius - bitter in defeat.
William - prototypical spoiled rich kid. Must have what he wants when he wants it. Seems to think he's entitled to anything.
Aliena - strong-willed and defiant.
Did I miss anyone?
Very good book. I'm glad you picked it, Josh. I'll be back to comment when you guys post something.
Okay fellows!
Let's plan to have read the first 2 chapters by Feburary 27th. That is 157 pages in my book out of 983.
By the way what edition do you guys have? Mine is a paperback by Signet, 1990 (I think). It has the same picture as the previous blog entry anyway.
Talk to you soon.
a-okI have selected the book I want us to read. Its a little bit of a change from our typical genre, but it should be a good change. It is by Ken Follett and is titled The Pillars of the Earth.
Here are some facts from his web page:
The Pillars of the Earth was chosen by Oprah Winfrey as the 60th Oprah’s Book Club selection in November 2007, and is #1 on the The New York Times trade paperback list and #8 on its mass market paperback list (9 December 2008).
Die Säulen der Erde (the German edition of The Pillars of the Earth) has been voted the third-most popular book in Germany by more than 250 000 readers who voted for the ZDF TV channel's 'best books' poll in 2006, after J R R Tolkein's The Lord of the Rings and the Bible. The audiobook edition has won a German Platinum Disk award for sales of more than 200,000 copies.
The Pillars of the Earth is one of the top 100 books chosen by British readers in the BBC's 2003 'The Big Read' – the UK’s biggest-ever celebration of reading. Readers nominated their best-loved books, and their choices were announced on 17 May 2003 on BBC2.
The Pillars of the Earth is one of the '101 Books to Read Before You Die' chosen by patrons of Exclusive Books – it is 27th on the list.
In conclusion, get this book ordered ASAP and if we can't get into this novel, we should probably abandon our reading careers completely.
chillin'Alright, so I've tried to read the book again! It's not working. I totally understand Josh's point of view on it. It doesn't help that when I try to read it, I keep thinking about how many other really cool books I am working on and would rather be reading. Any advice guys?
I just bought the book: Gandhi, an autobiography, the story of my experiments with truth. I'm soo excited to read it. Even the introduction is super interesting. Oh and you can read it for free on wikipedia but I hate reading stuff on my computer.
Happy new years everyone. This year is shaping up to be one really interesting year.
Hope to hear from you all more often. Our blog sort of died over the last 3 months. Let's get it back up and in gear again! I also found out that there is an RSS feed link on our blog. That means you can have internet explorer tell you when there has been an update or entry to our blog! That should help us to stay active with it as well!
Scott
Well, I'm done two chapters now. It's still a sloppily written book, even though it makes some points that are actually rather profound. Then again, pretty much any book that fits into the philosophy category does.
Saranam seems to have a boner for this cycle theory, as pretty much the whole second chapter is based on the premise that it's true in my opinion. Look, it's possible, sure. But what bugs me is that at first he presents it as a theory, and writes the rest of the chapter as though it's true. And he doesn't tell us he is going to do this, like CS Lewis does in Mere Christianity when he makes the jump from an argument for the existence of God straight into his Christian point of view. (p. 75, though I can't assume you have that book) You know, I had to travel about 8 feet to find that reference. GWR has maybe had...2 so far. Hey Saranam, at least put some effort into this. I actually agree with some of your points, a book better written might give you more credibility in my eyes. Back to the cycle theory, it actually does explain a lot in terms of human technological and sociological progess and regress as a whole. It's actually a decent theory. Of course, any theory worth its weight in cow dung has to have some substance to it. That said, I don't believe it yet I could be persuaded to, but I'd need more evidence. One of the reasons I don't is because I don't think God would be callous enough to stiff humanity as a whole on the mental end every 24,000 years for some reason that couldn't possibly be our fault.
Josh, if you need to be convinced to read on, this is really all I can come up with in good conscience to try and persuade you: 1) We all read through The Pagan Christ, despite the fact we all felt the author was a hack, and 2) Although you don't like the book, your points on it are valid and helpful for discussion. Isn't that the whole point of the book club? If you ultimately decide to quit reading now, though, we won't make you feel guilty or anything. Perhaps I'd defend the book more vehemently if I liked it more myself.
In fairness to the author, maybe my blog entries are sloppily written too. But hell, I'm not a freaking college grad and author. It's not his paragraph or sentence structure I'm attacking. It's just that between his good points there's just so much fluff, and he just expects us to take his word for everything. Excuse me, but that was one of the reasons I dispensed with religion in the first place. If I am to take anyone's word for anything, it's because their points are logical/valid to me. Even if God says it, I won't believe it unless it makes sense to me. Of course, if God says it, I trust that he'll say it to me in a way I will be able to understand it.
That's my rant for today. I may have more later.
accident proneI just had several paragraphs written arguing with the points this author makes that deny the historicity of the Bible. Somehow I pressed the wrong button and lost everything I had written. Maybe it's for the best, however, just be sure that most of what he says about the Bible is not true.
Right now I'm just finishing Chapter 2 in my reading, and I am quite sick of this book. I'm trying to keep an open mind, but the assumptions this author makes are too often leaps in logic. It feels like a mishmash of Eastern religion combined with utter selfishness that is cleverly hidden behind a mask that is trying to "enhance the larger body of humanity."
The hermeneutic of suspicion with which he approaches all traditional religion is surely attractive to those who have already given up on religion, but nearly anyone could write a book like this - after all he never cites his sources and therefore can deny any truth that he finds offensive in any of the major religions with a simple wave of his hand. He basically serves us a buffet of gibberish without apologizing.
The biggest weakness I see is that his pragmatic beginning leaves no moral platform on which to stand in order to decide what "truth" is valid. It's basically survival of the fittest. We may as well fend for ourselves because if you want to be a true seeker no one else can tell you what truth is. If this is the case, and I believe this is what he is arguing for, then truth really does not exist. All we have left is the journey. Unfortunately, it's a circular journey and we are never going to arrive at our destination (chapter 2). If this is the case it seems futile, and therefore very un-pragmatic.
In conclusion, you guys need to give me a reason for why I should finish the last two chapters of this book. Perhaps I'm just too close minded at this point in my life, but I can't find anything to agree with and his sloppy scholarship (which I proved in my last blog entry that I accidentally deleted) is driving me nuts.
Sorry to knock your book Dave. Later boys.
This should be an easy enough schedule for God Without Religion. As there are four chapters in the book, I propose we spend a month on each. That means we're finishing the year with this book.
Josh, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't have the book by now. It took three weeks for the book to arrive here, and if I recall correctly you ordered it just days after my birthday.
Also, Josh, have a book ready for the group for the new year.
God bless!
lazyOk everybody. I just thought I would let you all know that I just got the new book that dave chose for our next selection. I'm not sure if you have it yet josh, but let us know and then we can get dave to set our reading course. I am very interested in it, in fact Jenn has already started reading it before I could get my hands on it.
Hope your all having a great summer,
Scott
chattyOk, so I thought I would do a run down based on the appendix in the back of the book and finalize my understandings. I know it's late and you've probably all forgotten about the book but at least I'll be able to put it up on the bookshelf now and forget about it. So, without any more 'ado':
Principle 1: Life is sustained by a superhuman pulsating energy.
Ultimately this is obviously God. In my opinion God is everything and each particle of matter is just a product of the energy that God outputs in the form of a wave. This wave does produce not only matter, but life itself and the conditions necessary. We are, however, not limited by viewing the source being termed God as O'Murchu claims. Our definition of God must be expanded!
Principle 2: Sum of the Whole being greater than its parts.
Duh! You can't drive your car at a 1/4 of the speed with a 1/4 of the parts. However, it is a good concept for society to help them think past our typical selfish bubbles.
Principle 3: Evolution is unfolding with a sense of purpose.
This is merely an atheistic point of view of the great plan that God has for everything. It was necessary for God to plan out our oxygen supply so that we could live our lives. The fact that we are a result of such perplexing conditions should be evidence of that divine creativity.
Principle 4: The expanding horizon of revelation and inclusion of all religions
This is one that fly’s right in the face of Christianity…and one that I actually believe in. I have seen more ‘Christian’ behavior in Buddhist leaders than in some actual Christians. In fact, I have even gone so far as to accept anyone that truly searches inside themselves for that spiritual light that is God, as someone who has reached enlightenment. In the end, that’s all Christianity truly is: A journey of Enlightenment. And we should embrace the knowledge that is found from all sources of true Enlightenment.
Principle 5: Relationships and Sacraments compound and authenticate our spiritually.
I truly believe this one as well. The broader our circle, the more diverse and far reaching we can be. Jesus final words were to go out to all people.
Principle 6: Ultimate meaning comes from the greater story.
This is just another attempt at describing God’s divine plan for everything. I do, however, have to acknowledge his point that even some of the most historic texts dating back as far as we have contain wisdom that is still relevant today.
Principle 7: Redemption is dependant on our embracing of the dark side, for it is through which we can be re-born.
Hmm…I think that he might go a little far with this one. I do believe that God is often the cause of what we are sometimes quick to term as evil. And we must understand how important it is to maintain a balance of both polarities in our life. But that is as far as I would take it. We do not want to counter balance things and end up beyond our reach and capacity because we are truly meant to be positive, creative, and energetic beings.
Principle 8: Speciesism and structural sin are destroying morality.
So obviously true I won’t comment any farther.
Principle 9: We need to celebrate our spirituality with sacramental and ritual behavior.
This can quite simply be boiled down to prayer and meditation. And yes, I agree with his rather shallow point. It is through contact with the divine creative energy inside us that our flame spreads outward.
Principle 10: We live in an infinite universe that has imaginary constructs of finite(ness).
Though we will not live forever, we will in our spiritual beings. This will continue beyond the scientific life time remaining before our universe is dead.
Principle 11: We need a global conscience that is focused on sustaining planetary evolution.
Again, this is a simple concept that is being presented around the world in the name of ‘global warming.’
Principle 12: Love and Sexuality need to be embraced as a way of expressing God.
This is where things get a little wonky. He throws in something totally out of the blue that makes me want to put the book down. It’s almost like he’s concocted this entire theory in order to throw up a smoke screen and live a promiscuous life. I do understand how he can draw this sort of conclusion, but he isn’t being rational. If the last 100 years has taught us anything, it’s that sexual promiscuity is dangerous. It spreads life threatening disease. It alienates the spiritual from the physical by focusing only on physical beauty. And, it creates broken homes that don’t have the capacity to nurture life as nature intends.
My conclusion: Diarmuid O’ Murchu wants to be gay but feels trapped by Christian theology. Though he does raise some valid points, he ends with the wrong conclusion.
mischieviousHey Boyz,
My brother in law, who by the way kicked your butts at our stock market game, has just introduced me to our newest fad! It is called neo pets and it is sooooo fun! You must make a pet and then make me your neo pet friend.
It is absolutely absurd how many cool things you can do with these things. Every time you play a game, you win neo points, with which you can buy stuff. You can auction off the stuff you have bought, you can gamble, buy and sell stocks, open a high interest bank account, and run your own store.
Go to www.neopets.com to join in the fun! My username is joshthejuggler and my brother-in-law silo4321. Laura's is gudweiser!
Hope to have a sweet neo pet community in the next few days!
Word out!
incredulousYo!, everybody. I know I haven't posted in a while and your probably all waiting for me. Thing is I can't stay interested in the book enough to make time for it. It seems so basic and simple, other than the fact that he is referencing a basic Christian truth, (Love one another,) and making it some new found unbelieivable thing. I totally agree with his point that the only way to truly live and experience is with the joining of all people under the umbrella of love. So I guess that's my synopsis.
So where are you going to be for summer josh? Are you going back to BC or are you going to be in Moose Jaw? I expect Dave that you will be in Swift Current. I ask because I am considering moving back home for the summer with Jenn in order to work for my dad. There are certain circumstances with my workplace that are making it unbearable to work. I miss both of you guys as well and would also get to distance myself from this city life that is bogging me down and depressing me. I think it's just being cramped up in an apartment with no money to go do anything that's causing some depression as well.
Anyways, let me know what your plans are for the summer and what direction we should take for the blog. What's your new book called dave?
Scott
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